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Re: Edisonian AI; or, the Technological Maximum
by Karl on Friday May 12, @05:31PM
Well... no. I'm not talking about specifically what we will have in our pockets and driveways in ten years, twenty, or a hundred; basically I'm saying that we're entering a period that will be homogeneous in its overall conditions, so that we can speak of, say, the hunter-gatherer era of human history, the agricultural era, the industrial, and the technological maximum. Once we're at the maximum, one date looks pretty much like another in the same sense that a hunter-gatherer plucked from 12,000 B.C. could recognize an H/G society from 600 B.C. even though he didn't know the particular language or culture he'd been dropped into.

We're already using evolutionary algorithms to create new designs, so we're entering that era now. There's no firm dividing line, never will be. This is not the singularity.

Personal genie? No. Different paradigm of design/manufacturing? Yes.

Look at it this way; the whole idea of a "technology" is so wrapped up with our preconceptions about how an industrial society is put together that we're not even aware of the assumptions we make when we invoke the word. So "technological singularity" is a concept that's coherent only from within a certain framework. From the standpoint of that framework, yeah sure you inevitably get runaway arms races. There are enabling technologies being developed now (and I use the T-word in this case deliberately) that are potential enablers of a different process model that is not industrial anymore, and in which conditions like runaway arms races aren't important. You can have them; they're just not change drivers for the overall system anymore.

If you imagine that the world at the technological maximum works the way ours does, then what I'm saying will make no sense to you. But at least consider the idea that objections that come out of the current paradigm might sound like a 10th-century peasant having New York described to him and saying, "It'd never work. Where do they keep their sheep?"

Clearly a novel is in order to properly describe this stuff.

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    Re: Edisonian AI; or, the Technological Maximum
    by Ted Chiang on Saturday May 13, @10:01PM
    I can readily believe that there will be a different paradigm of design and manufacturing in the relatively near future. I just have a hard time reconciling that with your statement "At this point, it becomes nonsense to talk about 'higher' technologies."

    You asked, "What's higher than an optimal solution?" You've indicated that your optimal solution falls short of a personal genie, so obviously there is something higher. Until personal genies become available, it is possible to speak coherently about higher technologies. (Because you mentioned Clarke's law, I'm using "genie" as shorthand for some technological marvel.) And it's hard to say what a personal genie would have to be able to do. In the same way that our current world has created desires in people that 10th-century peasants could not understand, I can imagine that someone in the future could want things that -- had I a personal genie at my beck and call right now -- it might never occur to me to request. The specifications for a personal genie will always increase.

    (Not that I think personal genies are in our future.)

    [ Reply to this ]
    • Re: Edisonian AI; or, the Technological Maximum
      by Karl on Monday May 15, @07:43AM
      I think a lot of the confusion is coming from a conflation of two ideas that I've been guilty of here: design and fabrication. It will take a very long time for fabrication processes to catch up to current physical theory (unless we evolve those to...). Meanwhile, design can leapfrog far ahead of what we're capable of actually building, potentially into a realm where increases in processing power do not add any value.

      What I'm saying is that your personal genie will not be using design principles, or have deep knowledge, that's very different from early-stage Edisonian AIs. In its design skills it'll be more advanced than early systems in the same way that modern internal-combustion engines are more advanced than a model-T's--however much its fabrication skills may have increased. Unless new physical principles are discovered, it's not unreasonable to imagine that an AI two hundred years from now might not be able to design a given device any better than an AI twenty years from now. At some point we reach a stage where the limitation is not in the intelligence of the AI but in the physical possibilities of what can be realized. I am suggesting that barring new science, this point can be nailed down fairly concretely.

      What this whole discussion reveals is that there is a subtext to people's understanding of technology--i.e. a superstitious belief that it has no limitations. If it has no limitations then it is a supernatural power. If intelligence (design) has no limits then it too is a supernatural power. This strikes me as unlikely; and if there are limitations to what is technologically possible, what would such limits look like? It is not too early in history to ask this question.

      A technological maximum doesn't preclude any of the products of technology that are so dear to SF writers and readers, or fans of the singularity and posthumanism--except for the sort of Matrioshka brain world where everything's made of smart matter that spends all its time thinking real hard about something or other.

      And I disagree that the specifications for a personal genie will always increase. Specifications for required items may always change, but that's totally in line with what I've been saying. "Always increase" sounds suspiciously like another supernaturally limitless capability. I can imagine that someone in the future could want things that they can never have.


      [ Reply to this ]
      • Re: Edisonian AI; or, the Technological Maximum
        by Ted Chiang on Monday May 15, @04:14PM
        Fair enough.

        I agree that there are limitations to technology. However, I doubt that there are limitations to human desire. There will always be people asking for more, whether or not they can get it.

        [ Reply to this ]
        • Re: Edisonian AI; or, the Technological Maximum
          by Karl on Tuesday May 16, @07:13AM
          Well, yes. As I said in the original posting, "The critical question for the future will not be 'what's possible', but 'what do you want?' and do you want it more than others competing to use the same resources?"
          [ Reply to this ]

     
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