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| Farewell to the "God Spot" Idea |
Posted by Karl on Thursday August 31, @08:44AM
from the dept.
As reported on boing boing, some Montreal researchers have done brainscans of Carmelite nuns experiencing a state of union with God, and have found that their brains light up all over the place. Conclusion: the brain does not have specific circuits to mediate religious experience after all.
An interesting idea, but where could this research lead? Here's a few possibilities:
The abstract to the paper describes the activation pattern, and it's pretty systemic:
This state was associated with significant loci of activation in the right medial orbitofrontal cortex, right middle temporal cortex, right inferior and superior parietal lobules, right caudate, left medial prefrontal cortex, left anterior cingulate cortex, left inferior parietal lobule, left insula, left caudate, and left brainstem. Other loci of activation were seen in the extra-striate visual cortex.
Now, one should hasten to add that this is far from conclusive: it may in fact be the case that Carmelite nuns (or these particular) Carmelites, are worshiping the wrong god and as a result were not having 'genuine' religious experiences to begin with. Certainly this would be a reasonable assumption for any partisan of a non-Christian religion to make.
It gets more interesting. From here, further studies open up three possibilities:
- Religious mystics of other faiths have distinctly different activation patterns. Such a finding could throw gasoline on the fire of religious intolerance because it would clearly suggest that the similarities between religions (idea of One god, moral precepts etc.) are superficial and that the gulf between them can't be bridged. More exactly, it would lend credence to the idea that it's the highly specific symbolic and conceptual details of doctrines that matter--an idea that in the past has been a leading driver of pogroms and religious wars. This would be a disastrous finding; imagine fanatics demanding that their followers submit to a brainscan while praying, and subsequently 're-educating' or executing those whose scans fail to show the right experience.
- Religious mystics of other faiths have exactly the same activation pattern. This would be the opposite bombshell: neurological evidence that the superficial details of different religions don't matter--that they all end up in the same place. This would greatly further the cause of religious liberalism.
It can be said in this case that religion is like music in the way it lights up dozens of different brain areas, and is hence a holistic experience. In that sense, it's probably better that there is no one 'god spot;' just as you can't stimulate one spot in the brain and cause someone to have a musical experience (you can make somebody hear music that's not there, but that's not the same thing) nor can you simply 'switch on' enlightenment. I can hear priests and theologians the world over heaving a sigh of relief over this one.
- Everybody's activation pattern is different, even within religions. This would tend to suggest that religious experience doesn't really exist at all--it's just a case of people attaching one label to dozens of different things, perhaps experiences that are similar only in being powerful, transformative, and unique. This result would say that there is no experience of God to be had, only various degrees of sucking-up to religious authority. It would be a kidney-blow to every faith and definitely another round in the Copernican diminution of religion in general.
So which will it be? I'm leaning toward #2, but any one of the three would be interesting. The main point is that while scientists may say that their findings do nothing to validate or invalidate faith as such, they're... well... lying. Or idiots. Studies of this sort will come freighted with implications whether the scientists want them to or not. Some of those implications could be world-changing, or dire. But they're not likely to be neutral.
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Re: Farewell to the "God Spot" Idea
by Thomas on Friday September 01, @07:31AM
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Well, for sure this have religious implications. But honestly, would "people of faith" just give a damn about such neurobiological findings, unless it serves them right ? I don't think so.
I think the option #2 wouldn't have any effects on society, simply because those who should be flabergasted by such a scientific revelation aren't receptive to this kind of arguments.
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Re: Farewell to the "God Spot" Idea
by Karl on Monday September 04, @07:27AM
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I think you're right--but I have a suspicion, yet to be confirmed, that there's a big difference between discoveries we make about the world out there and discoveries we make about our interior world.
Up to now, any discovery we made that had any power to influence us did so through the same media--through actions in the outside world. Cogsci is the first science to have the potential to change that, by directly addressing human nature. I strongly suspect that findings in cognitive science will turn out to have a different quality than findings in other sciences, and will have a capacity to change us all out of proportion to their apparent significance.
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Re: Farewell to the "God Spot" Idea
by Thomas on Thursday September 07, @08:55AM
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I don't think cognitive science is the first science to directly address the problem of human nature. To me, this is the very purpose of the whole psychology field, and it's been quite some time philosophers are addressing this question.
I think you're right in saying there is a difference between findings about the world "in there" and "out there". That's one big dilema in the psychology field : how can you make "objective" considerations about your very own thinking process ?
If a researcher finds how laughing and humor works and explain it to everyone, will this insight about our own cognitive process make the jokes less funny ?
Definitely cognitive science will change us or the world we live in : the potentiel of a good understanding of our thinking process is infinite ! But I'm not sure this change will come from the inside ...
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Re: Farewell to the "God Spot" Idea
by Trevor Bechtel on Monday October 02, @05:43PM
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Option 4: One of option 1-3 happens, and many people are concerned with the frieght that get attached. Without attacking the attached science, another group of people say, sure, you measured religious experience, or at least something that looks alot like it, but you still don't know anything new about God.
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Re: Farewell to the "God Spot" Idea
by Martin La Grange on Saturday October 21, @01:45AM
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After reading this article through, one vital point makes itself plain to me (and all please evaulate here..)
While the probabilities of different explanations for the observed effect are not without validity, they illustrate a more subjective problem inherent in the research. Firstly, they are playing within the the cathloic definition of the current scientific paradigm - that is - form a question and then play around with a set of observations as stimulation of new questions. While this works for deductive work within the natural sciences, this particular line of research is dealing with a process that falss between the cracks.
Neural cascades that are the hallmark of protein-electrochemical cascades (such as the brain and other biological neural networks on Earth) in conscious and other thought and consciousnes experiencews so far escape the intellect - as the intellect is perhaps a resonance of them (see how I have wandered already into philosphy...but lets press on)
an MRI while observing the rapture of a Carmelite Nun, is useful - it tells us that something is happening in the lady's brain. Further, it tells us that her experience is real.
No surprises there then.
But the heart of the misunderstading comes down to quantisation. In congitive science there has been the constant quest to find such a quantised relationshps describing the experience of consciousnes within a computational or nervous network - and always stymied by lower than enough complexity, which simulational cognition scientists have always conceded, though more so today than perhaps fifty to sixty years ago. Again this is nothing most people, when they think about the subject do not already know. Hence the usual incredulity when considering famous SF AI attempts. The antecedents in book and film are legion, though A.C. Clarke's supercomputer appears to be the most typical , perhaps, and still is a Frankenstein's Monster despite this.
So within the framework of a brain in cascade - the MRI is indicating a midl energy change, particularly of freed ATP at the junction of Mitochondrial conversion points within the brain during a religious experience.
Now a bit of knowledge should also be applied - prayer (the Mt. Carmel vow and devotion) involves a set of mental experiences all related to meditation - the Catholic Churche's own description of serious prayer. Repetitive though produces cascades - and stimulation on the level of particular wave resonances e.g. Alpha waves is known to do the same.
So we are left with the same problem which we started with - the cascade could be induced - OR - it was already a form of cascade that was not induced from within as much as a response to a stimulus , either within or without ?
And so the research, while not meaningless, is perhaps lacking a semantic context - are we asking a question to fall within the scientific paradigm, or was it wasted effort - since the true event is neither that answered within the paradigm, and falls outside. What lies outside the scientific paradigm ? The philosphical is the only other so far.
As another writer once put it snappishly - life is not a problem to be solved (the scientific process) but a reality to be experienced (the philosphical experience).
Sorry for the tangential take on it.
Martin La Grange
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